Welcome back to the Words of Radiance Reread on Tor.com! Last week, we finished Part One, “Alight,” as Kaladin finally began to formally practice his Windrunner skills and was surprised by the arrival of a “hero.” This week, we’re moving into the Interludes, beginning with our very first Parshendi point of view.
This reread will contain spoilers for The Way of Kings, Words of Radiance, and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. The index for this reread can be found here, and more Stormlight Archive goodies are indexed here. Read on, and join us in the 
comments—there’s a lot to discuss this week.
Housekeeping note: As you can see, we decided to go with the Interludes before we review the collected Part I epigraphs. There is just too much information in the Interludes that has a bearing on Navani’s thoughts; this way, we’ll get some of it before we talk about her journal entries. Since it would be impossible to do justice to any of the Interludes if we tried to do it all in a single week, we’re taking them one at a time. Today, Interlude One: digging into the Parshendi culture and conditions.
Interlude One: Narak
Point of View: Eshonai
Setting: Narak, the central plateau of the Shattered Plains
Symbology: Listener, Shalash
IN WHICH Eshonai returns to her exile home after a battle in which she did not participate, and neither did Dalinar; she reflects on the ancient history of the Shattered Plains and the urban area it once was; she regrets her lost days of exploration and discovery, as she is now trapped on this plateau, fighting a war she cannot win; soldiers are abysmal artists, being designed both physically and mentally for warfare rather than creativity; mateform is likewise designed for mating (duh) and is apparently not good for much else but frivolity; Eshonai’s experiments have proven that it doesn’t have to work that way, though it takes a great deal of self-discipline to be otherwise; Eshonai’s sister Venli is in nimbleform, suited to fine motor skills and capable of scholarship, since they don’t have a proper form for true scholarship; Venli seems to have secret knowledge, and seems inappropriately amused at Eshonai’s priorities; her researches have discovered the secret of … stormform. (DUN!)
Quote of the Week:
The Rhythm of Resolve thrummed softly in the back of Eshonai’s mind as she reached the plateau at the center of the Shattered Plains.
The central plateau. Narak. Exile.
Home.
This seems like a good place to start, as we are given our first insider view of the Parshendi. The listeners, they call themselves, and the first hint of the reason is right here in the first few words: the Rhythms. There’s always a Rhythm, whether thinking or speaking; we’ll check out a handful of these right here in this first Interlude. (But there will be More. Oh, yes, there will.)
The location: the central plateau. By the end of the book, we’ll discover other important aspects to that particular place, but for now it is the home of what’s left of Eshonai’s people. They have named it Exile. If anyone was still inclined to think of the Parshendi as merely “the bad guys,” this should start a change in that mindset. By the end of the chapter, the about-face ought to be nearly complete.
Commentary: Talk about dense writing. In a mere eight pages, we gain incredible insights into an alien culture and history that changes… pretty much everything. It’s hard to know what to say without quoting every other paragraph!
Okay. Well, we know now why the Shardbearer was hanging back from the battle in Chapter 8, observing but not fighting. Apparently Kaladin did more damage to her than any of the humans realized. Sadly, that was her last chance for the peace she hoped to obtain…
She needed to speak with him. She felt an urgency to do so blowing upon the winds themselves.
Oh, my. Knowing what we now know, this is heartbreaking. If only Dalinar hadn’t stepped back from the fighting just now! If only she weren’t so badly injured! If only she could have found a way to reach out to him at that battle they were both watching! They could have talked, and then none of this book would have been necessary! Oh, wait… Ummmm…
Well, it’s still heartbreaking in-story.
Ruins of ruins. I find it ironic that these exact ruins, here at the center of the Shattered Plains, will ultimately save the humans from what Eshonai will soon become. That, despite her (correct) thoughts here that the Alethi had no idea that they were walking among the ruins of an ancient, long-dead city, there’s one human who will soon see deeper than both the other humans and the listeners, and will use that insight to escape and hopefully find information to aid against these very same people.
There are hints here about the choice Eshonai’s ancestors made, long ago, to escape from their old gods. While we don’t know all the implications of this yet, I found it unsettling to discover that Gavilar’s assassination was part of maintaining that position. Even more, it’s unsettling to realize that Venli’s approach, her attempts to keep their people from being killed in the war they knowingly triggered, will make the whole thing pointless. All those generations of avoiding any form that might reconnect them to their gods, and this entire war where so many of their people have died, will be rendered meaningless by the decision to pursue stormform in order to fight back.
Incidentally, this makes me really glad that Sadeas is gone, but just a little regretful that he died so quickly. Him and his “no mercy” policy have made it impossible for the listeners to dare try to survive by surrendering. Just… GRRRR.
Let’s take a quick look at the Rhythms while we have the chance. In this chapter alone, we see various characters attuning Resolve, Mourning, Excitement, the Lost, Praise, Skepticism, Peace, Irritation, and Amusement. There are many more, as we’ll see soon, but this is more than enough to be getting on with. These Rhythms are there, all the time, as a consciously-chosen accompaniment to all speech and thought; the Rhythm chosen seems to communicate at least as much the spoken word.
It’s fitting, then, that their entire recorded history is a matter of songs set to the various Rhythms. (Oh, the fun we’ll have with the epigraphs in Part II…) One of the most poignant of the many wrenching reflections in this Interlude is Eshonai’s thought on the songs written down by Venli’s researchers:
Songs without music, written out as they were. Their souls stripped away.
It could be mere metaphor, but I don’t think so. I think, for the listeners, music is inextricably linked to the soul. Consider Eshonai’s thoughts on slaveform: the form with “no spren, no soul, and no song.” Somehow the three are intimately connected for these people—the music, the soul, and the forms are almost the same thing. But, you know, not quite the same…
(I feel like I’m trying to pick apart an intricate knot – the kind my daughter gets in her shoelaces, for example! – and I can’t quite tell which bits to push and which to pull, in order to straighten it out. Except this is way more fun than stinky sneakers. Umm… Maybe my metaphors need some work, there… Heh.)
The forms are distinct from the Rhythms, at least so far (sadly, that will change soon), but they are related somehow. I think it’s got something to do with their connection to the Cognitive realm. The forms they currently know all have access to roughly the same Rhythms, with the exception of slaveform and possibly dullform.
We haven’t really seen yet the connection between the spren and the forms, so I won’t go there, but we do need to talk about some aspects of the forms. At this stage, they have six forms: warform, workform, mateform, dullform, nimbleform, and slaveform. Each form is specially suited to one primary function, and though it has secondary capabilities, it has severe limitations. Here, I have to quote nearly a whole paragraph:
…Warform was a good form, versatile. It didn’t impede thought, like mateform did. As with workform, you were yourself when you were warform. But each had its quirks. A worker had difficulty committing violence—there was a block in the mind somewhere. That was one of the reasons she liked the form. It forced her to think differently to get around problems.
It appears that to a significant degree, the form determines not only aptitude, but a large degree of the personality. Not the entire thing, of course; Eshonai was able to train herself to confront while in workform, and to be productive while in mateform (though not reproductive, apparently). Still, the form affects the mind to an amazing degree. Oh, and in most of the forms, the genders are “malen/femalen,” but in mateform they are male/female. It’s like they have four genders up in here.
About the other forms. We know that slaveform is the one commonly known as “parshmen” and that it has very limited connection to the Cognitive realm. Dullform, while not quite so bad, is close enough that one who takes it on can easily pass for a parshman. (But we don’t know anyone like that, do we? Nah…) We really know almost nothing about nimbleform except that they have hair, are more dexterous than the others, and are apparently able to scheme. One wonders whether it’s related to the old gods, after all. There’s certainly something weird about Venli.
Stormwatch: Not that it’s critical, but this scene actually takes place a few days after the events of the chapters we’ve been reading; in fact, probably between the timeframes of Chapters 13 and 14.
Sprenspotting: We have two interesting spren sightings here, and both appear different to the listeners than they do to humans. Creationspren, however, are conspicuous by their absence. (I wonder what they’d look like to the listeners.)
We’ve seen angerspren around humans before, and will again. They are always described as boiling up around the feet of the angry person like pools of blood. But if you’re a listener:
She saw them coming from a ways off, drawn by her emotion, moving with an incredible speed—like lightning dancing toward her across the distant stone. The lightning pooled at her feet, turning the stones red.
One thing that seems very different between the human and listener observations of angerspren is that for humans, they bubble up from the ground, whereas the listeners see them coming from a distance—just as they do with exhaustionspren, as noted a couple of weeks ago. The appearance, likewise, is different: larger, more detailed, sharper, clearer. There’s one more mention of angerspren from the listener perspective, but I’ll wait to talk about that one. At least until I-4, maybe I-5.
Something to note about the exhaustionspren in this chapter: after hanging about Venli for a bit, Eshonai notes that they spin away to search out more fresh sources of emotion. While this is consistent with what we’ve observed about spren, it struck me anyway. I think it’s because Eshonai seems to understand the spren and know what they’re doing, as opposed to our guessing based on behavior. (Does that make sense? It did to me, anyway.)
Heraldic Symbolism: Shalash, as the Heraldic icon for this chapter, is (I’m pretty sure) mostly for the efforts the listeners are making to create works of art, to attract creationspren. This ties in several ways to their efforts to find other forms, though; they are trying hard to think creatively. Shalash in her current twisted form would probably approve of Venli’s approach, though, so that might tie in too.
We have in this chapter a new character icon, which I’ve dubbed the Listener (unless Carl has a better idea). It probably represents Eshonai herself, as the last Shardbearer of her people. However, it also seems to depict both the Shattered Plains (or at least a couple of plateaus and a chasm) and a highstorm which enables the listeners to change forms, so in that way it seems representative of the entire people. And I just realized (as the cover of TWoK came up as my wallpaper) that the icon is also very evocative of the Eshonai figure and her background in that remarkable painting. Whether or not this is intentional, I have no idea, but there it is.
Shipping Wars: Well… relationships, anyways… It seems the listeners form semi-permanent pairings, no matter what form they’re in. We’ve seen the way they always fight in pairs, and now we see Venli and “her once-mate” Demid, who would form a warpair if they were in warform, but Eshonai calls them “a researchpair, or something”—which just reinforces the fact that what they’re doing is way outside the experience of the listeners.
Just Sayin’: I thought about trying to go through all the different vocabulary we pick up in this Interlude just from being inside a different race and a different culture, but this would get mighty long even for me. The Rhythms, the ways of thinking, the ways of seeing the world… so much of it is unique to the listeners that I’ll leave it up to you to point out anything you think deserves a bit of extra attention.
Wow. I feel like I said too much and not enough, and also said it somewhat incoherently, but I don’t think I can work it over any further without making a complete shambles of it. Hopefully it makes enough sense for y’all to sink your teeth in and get some good discussion going! See you in the funny papers comments!
Alice Arneson is a long-time Tor.com commenter and Sanderson beta-reader. She has been a fantasy lover since the age of eight, when her third-grade teacher loaned her his copy of The Hobbit. (Thanks, Mr. Hamilton!) She’s also a full-time wife & mom with degrees in engineering, literature, and chemistry. Nice combination, eh?
Anyone else been hitting refresh waiting on this?
Yes… :-)
Now to read!
I think malen/femalen are just the neuter forms of male/female, since they seem to be neuter unless in mateform.
To foreshadow the looming disaster, a tiny voice inside me is crying out that it’s all wrong, wrong. Everything seems fine here and it’s got all sorts of lovely worldbuilding and information and maybe this whole bloody war is about to get sorted out. But no.
I can’t bear these interludes. The assassin-in-white interludes were terrible but this seems worse. The slow descent into self-inflicted xenocide and they don’t see what they’re doing.
Reading her early thoughts, now just makes me sad. The ‘what if’s drive me nuts’!
What if:
1) Nimble form had not been secretly selfish?
2) Sadeas had not been the first (and only) High Prince they had tried to surrender too?
3) Eshonai & Dalinar had been able to speak before Stormform turned her?
4) The humans had been smarter about realizing they were walking on an ancient city?
My brain first turned your ‘GRRRR’ into GRRM. Which, when dealing with Sadeas… yep. He would fit into that man’s world.
And, how did Eshonai move about to make her maps? Did she just stay hidden from humans? Is much of Roshar empty of people? Did she pretend to be dull form when encountering people?
She talks about exploring, so where did she explore before the war?
And this whole section does lead itself into talking about “Self-fulfilling prophecy.”
Once you know a prophecy, the steps taken to avoid a prophecy, often lead to its completion.
Lots of info on the Listeners, too much for me to go into right now. The two things that I most took away from this interlude are: 1) Eshonai is just as much a potential hero and sympathetic character as it seemed she might be wsy back in WOK when we saw that even as Dalinar was losing and might be killed, the Parshendi shardbearer wanted to talk to him. And 2) Venli will be Trouble, Trouble with a capital T (and that rhymes with P and that stands for
PoolParshendi).Mateform is kinda hilarious, I like the concept and wouldn’t mind trying it out. Well, other forms too, it would be nice to become more athletic just by using a spren instead of needing hours each day in the gym, for example.
I read a WOB recently and IIRC it said there are four genders among the Listeners and that the malen and femalen are asexual.
Guess I didn’t make that clear… It’s my understanding from the text that mateform is the only form in which sexual activity – or even sexual attraction – is relevant. They still have two genders while in other forms, but mating isn’t a big aspect of their relationships.
I wonder what happened to Eshonai’s once-mate. Presumably dead in this long war?
I very much enjoyed the background about the Parshendi culture and their different forms. So Informative.
I thought I read something once that Brandon had once mentioned that he set up the Interludes in such a way that if a reader wanted to skip them, he/she would not miss anything with respect to the story proper (i.e. the non-Interlude sections). If my memory is correct, I think that if a reader were to skip the Interludes in WoR, then he/she would have a much different perspective at the end of WoR. The Interludes in WoR (IMO) are essential to the entire plot — especially those involving Eshonai and the Parshendi.
Thanks for reading my musings,
AndrewB
(aka the musespren)
I like that the angerspren look (to Eshonai & the listeners) like the Everstorm. It means the Everstorm is mad about something, no?
So ‘en’ is Listener for ‘ish’.
“When not in Mateform we’re not really male or female anymore, just sort of Male-ish or female-ish.”
I do wonder if Venli’s research was really about “attempts to keep their people from being killed” or if she had other plans all along. There have been plenty of groups scheming on the human side (Ghostbloods, etc.) trying to influence events. Was there a group on the Listener side that Venli was involved in? Or did someone (Odium) influence her in a more direct manner?
I think Venli had been trying to find a way to defeat the humans soon after she took on nimbleform three years prior. It has corrupted her. If there was an organized secret society amongst the Listeners she would probably be at the head of it.
I think it’s worth noting that, for the most part, the listeners seem to be very self aware, so that the personality changes the forms impose are noteable from the inside, as it were. I would expect that if my personality was changed in this way, I wouldn’t immediately notice unless someone pointed it out. But the listeners seem to be aware of the changes of the pathways of their thoughts.
I wonder how much of a listener’s personality is directly the listener, and how much is from (or at least strongly influenced by) their bonded spren. If slaveform is any indication (no spren), their personality–or perhaps their expression thereof–is greatly influenced by their spren (or lack thereof). This is further supported by what happens to Eshonai’s personality once she bonds the stormform spren.
Do the spren visit the Listeners differently because they know they are not humans? I feel like they almost have a certain hostility towards the Listeners. The epigraphs seem to mention that the spren chose to interact with humans instead of listeners.
Or is this a more true form of the spren? We know the spren look differently in Shadesmar and that shadesmar is a dangerous place. Perhaps anger spren’s true form just looks more angular and fierce and the listeners are cognizant of that fact.
Airsick@15
Getting a bit ahead of the book here, but from the Listener’s song of spren, 9th stanza:
The Listeners likely see a form closer to the Shadesmar form of spren.
I would have guessed that malen and femalen have vestigal/atrohpied male and female reproductive organs. They are purposeless and lessened, but are still there and identifiable. On taking mateform, the organs build back up and regain their utility.
Fascinating tidbit. So where does this leave the Aimians? (the blue guys with detachable body parts and reverse shadows)
And what is it exactly that Humans have? Is it just that mankind is more fully in this world, while Parshendi seems to straddle the line just a bit more?
I loved the interludes and the view into the Listeners society. Worldbuilding at its finest :)
However, since TWoK and the mention that they have shards I wondered if any of them were radiants. Do we know? Has Brandon ever said anything?
After learning about shardblades I also have to wonder how do the blades feel to the Listeners, is the way Eshonai interacts with her blade different than how “humans” do that? I mean obviously they see live spern different, what about mostly dead ones?
@19
They have dead shards, which can be wielded by anyone. WOB has stated that there have been no Parshendi radiants.
Ok, so if there are no Radiant Parshendi…. what does this verse mean?
I was reading that last night, and thinking that it sounds awfully like a prophecy…
@7 Wetlandernw
To your question: I wonder what happened to Eshonai’s once-mate. Presumably dead in this long war?
My theory is that Eshonai’s once-mate is Rlain/Shen. I can’t remember the passage, but the way he talks about her after he returns to the Alethi in stormform makes me think he knows her on a personal level and genuinely cares about her and is worried about her.
Gavi @23 – As theories go, I rather like that. It’s certainly not provable from the text – but it’s not disprovable, either. He clearly knew her well enough to recognize the change in her voice, although that could be attributed to her attuning an Odium-Rhythm. (No, I don’t know that the new Rhythms are of Odium, but I think they are.) The grief could be attributed to the change in his people… but it could very easily be the change in his once-mate. I definitely want to ask Brandon about that now!
We know the spren have largely avoided the Radiants since the Recreance/Betrayal. Do most spren avoid the Parshendi for a similar reason? Is this part of why they have a hard time finding other forms?
@23 I got that same feeling on my second read through. I would be very happy if that were true even though that would be sad for Rlain. What could their ship name be? Eshain? Rlshonai? I got nothin.
MDNY@5 I think from the Listener perspective you ARE in mateform :)
The difference between mateform and the others reminds me of Ursula K Le Guin’s Left Hand of Darkness where the people spend most of their time genderless but go into a highly sexual “Kemmer” once a month. They also thought of regular humans as in Kemmer all the time.
@@.-@
And, how did Eshonai move about to make her maps? Did she just stay
hidden from humans? Is much of Roshar empty of people? Did she pretend
to be dull form when encountering people?
She talks about exploring, so where did she explore before the war?
Well,humans never travelled there for a long time after the last desolation.So when Gavilar/Dalinar bumped into them I think that was their first meeting.Humans know Natanatan was there,but there’s not much trace of it.
For as much information as this Interlude gives us there are still so many questions left unanswered. Here are a couple that bug me:
1) Why wasn’t Eshonai, as the last shardbearer, participating in the gemheart runs even before her injury?
2) How does gemheart=eating work for the Listeners? Do they have soulcasters? Or maybe they just prop up the gems by their rock buds. We have this WOB
I’m not sure if just the light emitting from a gem would do it, though.
btw, great job on the write up, Alice!
Bellaberry@29, 2) I was looking for this last time I read WoR and found the answer on pg 204:
“…plants which had been encouraged to grow quickly by use of Stormlight-infused gems.”
It seems that some stormlight is infused in the rain at the end of a Highstorm as well. In WoK, Kaladin says something about a study that was done to see if storm water made plants grow more quickly than regular water. It also seems that all the farmers knew that storm water worked better.
Perhaps too early to discuss this, but it was touch a bit in the post.
It seems that the parshendi forms are the results of a special bonding with a spren that is physical as well as cognitive. They change their physical attributes and seem to gain a link to the cognitive realm, or at least a version of it where they can tune to the rhythms. With this in mind, it is not surprising that they know and intrinsically understand the nature of the sprens much better than the humans.
Do the Parshendi remind anyone else of the kandra, who also seemed to resist their “god” (Ruin)?
Also, do we know where new parshmen come from if they don’t have mateform?
witsquared @@@@@ 30 – My impression with the storm water was that it was more of a fertilizer thing – we know that only storm water deposits crem, and I’m guessing that the crem would provide additional nutrients to the fields/plants. I’ve never professed to be an agricultural expert, though, so I certainly could be wrong about that.
I have wondered that. Maybe they are not completely infertile as slaveform and taking care of them means they periodically get laid, so you always have a new generation of Parshmen. Or maybe there are farms for that.
The more I write, the darker that sounds.
Yes, impressive how much is packed in those few pages.
And I also wondered about the mating – and how the Parshmen (slaveform) were able to reproduce…
I must have forgotten something important (no suprise). Why are the Listeners bothering to fight the Alethi? Yes, they killed Gavilar and there’s the Vengeance Pact. But that’s the Alethi perspective. If the Listeners had simply dispersed into the wilds like ninjas in the night, instead of congregating together on the Shattered Plains, then they wouldn’t be fighting a losing war of attrition. The best answer I have is that the Listeners felt the Alethi would hunt them to extinction regardless of where they were. Can y’all add anything to set me straight?
Heraldic Symbolism: Definitely agree about the creativity aspects. I had the feeling Eshonai was also being honest in her thoughts throughout this interlude. Perhaps I just fabricated something I was looking for though.
Sprenspotting: The developments in this interlude seems to indicate spren are attracted to, rather than the cause of anger and exhaustion. However, I want to believe spren are the causative agent, based on previous info. Could it be cause or effect depends on which type of spren are in play?
Xaladin @32
Their parents? Seriously, we don’t that I recall, but I would speculate that slaveform Listeners are born to mateform parents pre-Shattered Plains conclave, grow up, choose a form as necessary (personal choice or food supply issues?) or as required. Those who chose/are chosen to remain in slaveform would then migrate to Alethi cities. The war has only been going on for 6 years, so the lack of new slaveform Listeners may not have been noticed yet by the Alethi.
ZenBossanova @34
Shame on you. ;-)
Witsquared @30- thanks for that :)
ZenBossanova @34- that might sound dark but it’s kind of like the Terrismen from Mistborn. I wouldn’t think that they used to just wander over since Navani says in chapter 79 that “we account our parshmen with precision”
@11 and 12
I think we can pretty firmly establish that Venli is a member of an Odium-based secret society and also seems to be the head of the society.
It was suspicious in this interlude that they had invented paper, a new writing system, and the new form, Nimble form, so recently, though it can be hard to tell outside influence from teh natural pressure of teh war and learning ideas from the Alethi. It is very suspicious that Venli is able to “discover” stormform and so comfortable with the idea, reacting in amusement to Eshonai’s comments about diplomacy and admitting she was seeking for ancient powers. Throwing off taht taboo taht formed the basis of their society is a big deal. Syl was seeing the red spren before the upcoming transformation…were they or someone else controlling them communicating with Venli? It’s not conclusive at all, but suspicious.
But once Eshonai and Venli are both Stormform and jockeying for power, Venli admits it. In Interlude 11, pg. 715:
Eshonai says “You knew, didn’t you? You knew exactly what this form would do to me. You knew this before you took the form yourself.” “I…Yes.” [I speculate she was so opposed to Eshonai taking the form because she wanted to set herself up as leader rather than Eshonai.] Eshonai grabs her and they tussle a bit. “How did you discover this? It didn’t come from the songs. There is more.” Venli doesn’t reply directly, but says stormform is the only way. “We must summon that storm. It has been…waiting, Eshonai. Waiting and building.” She then says her staff has been working on gathering thousands of the spren for 3 weeks, when Eshonai had only been stormform for 15 days.
I think for a Sanderson reveal, this is almost shouting that Venli knows that the storm is of Odium and not just a normal highstorm. The waiting and building stuff. It seems almost all of the scholars are in on this secret society and Venli is the head.
@34 and 36 slaveform, parshmen and their reproduceing ,to keep there numbers the same. If they didn’t in some manner reproduce then in a generation they would disappear. There must have been some place the slaveform did the reproducing and rearing of children, perhaps hidden from man. This could also be how the “pershendi ” came into being, as children refusing to take slave form. (Pure speculation on reproducing and the appearance of the Pershendi.)
Eshonai , her real personality seems pushed aside by the spren for stormform, and the real self is fighting to get back in control.
“No Spren, No soul, No Music”
Spren and Soul are Cognitive and Spiritual manifestations right? Eshonai clubs Music With them. So music is more like the Physical Manifestation of Existence of Parshendi.
I agree that it doesn’t make sense for parshmen to just wander around. For one, they will starve if not directed. Second, considering they are worth a lot, someone would have found where they were coming from, because that is a lot of spheres.
If the Parshendi are, to some degree, controlled by music, could you dictate forms with a massive orchestra? Or prevent forms from work? Even just a line of drums, so they have a hard time keeping rhythm?
I have high hopes for Eshonai, but she is going to have a very rough time in the next book. I hope that working WITH the Parshendi will be one way this Desolation will be different. Or is that different? Did they work with them before?
Listener’s song of spren, 10th stanza:
But it is not impossible to blend
Their Surges to ours in the end.
It has been promised and it can come.
Or do we understand the sum?
We question not if they can have us then,
But if we dare to have them again.
@23 I agree that I also thought Rlain/Shen was Eshonai’s missing mate. His spying seems analagous to the exploring Eshonai was embarked on in her past. I also wish to add my agreement with the group in general that Odium was influencing Venli.
I’m looking forward to Eshonai’s journey from the underworld, sorry chasms back to Nalak in the nexr book!
Yes, Eshonai’s interludes are deeply poignant. If only! I still think that she is likely to become the first Listener Radiant, but the Parshendi are pretty much gone, alas.
I am pretty sure that Venli is very much a follower of Odium already and may have been for a long time. Later, Stormformed Eshonai is capable of enough self-reflection to note that her own personality has changed drastically, but Venli’s hasn’t at all. Also, that Venli clearly was already familiar with the Stormform and must have worn it previously.
I can’t decide whether the nimble form is supposed to be evil. On the one hand, Parshendi have abandoned most forms for a very good reason. OTOH, I imagine that they already had a number of different natural forms before getting corrupted back then. And only the traditional 4 forms being “wholesome” would be very limiting, IMHO. Not a single uncorrupted “creative” form?!
Anyway, I think that most of the WoR Interludes are quite brilliant and while reading I didn’t feel like they distracted me from the “main” narrative I’d rather be following at all. In fact, they are such an ingenious device to widen the scope of the story without the risk of bloat that comes with just adding more regular PoVs. Or of the hoary trope of one of the few existing PoVs always being on hand for everything of importance, no matter how contrived the circumstances.
Anyone else think that Venli may have discovered scholarform and was in that form, not nimbleform?
“Scholarform shown for patience and thought. Beware its ambitions innate. Though study and diligence bring the reward, Loss of innocence may be one’s fate
—From the Listener Song of Listing, 69th stanza”
witsquared @44 – Oooh. I like that. I didn’t have time to really dig into the Part II epigraphs and evaluate them for this post, much to my chagrin; this is one example. It’s a distinct possibility.
It’s going to be fascinating to discuss the Listener Songs in light of the whole book! There have been some excellent observations made already, connecting what we know from this Interlude with what we’ll learn from the Songs and a few other places in the book. So intricate.
Two things I guess…
1) We’ve seen the “odiumspren,” , but do we know anything, either WoB or in the text about the spren for the other forms? I can’t see there being “warspen” or “nimblespren,” so…?
Spoilery below, not sure if this content has come up in this forum before…
2) I’m pretty sure we’ve learned the Horneaters are part Parshendi, so, I’m curious about how they interact with spren? We know Rock can see Syl, and IIRC, other Horneaters can too, but can they form Nahel bonds, can they take different forms, or maybe a hybrid or something completely different…
waxingwass @46 I seem to remember reading about a WoB about the Horneaters’ listener heritage. I think it could go either way on the Nahel bond. Shallan could, and she has Horneater blood and therefore Parshendi blood, but it is more diluted than in a Horneater.
It will be hard for us to find out though. I imagine Rock not being willing to fight would keep him from becoming a Windrunner anyways. Sounds like a good question for BWS at a signing.
And what is it exactly that Humans have?
Maybe listeners can’t use stormlight.
@48 Listener’s song of spren, 10th stanza:
But it is not impossible to blend
Their Surges to ours in the end.
It has been promised and it can come.
Or do we understand the sum?
We question not if they can have us then,
But if we dare to have them again.
It seems evident that the Listeners cannot manipulate stormlighht in the same way as humans can. It will be interesting to see if Eshonai or Rlain can/will develop a surge poweo themr in developing into a Knight Radiant.
The desire to avoid Odium’s influence seems to be the primary reason for their confinement to the forms known to the current population. What limitations are also built into this race?
The similarity to Kandra and even Koloss does seem accurate. Is this becoming a trope for Sanderson, a chronic flaw able to be manipulated by a Shard?
@49 I wouldn’t equate the Parshendi with Kandra or Koloss. Kandra and koloss were both created using the power of a shard (the Lord Ruler created them using the Well of Ascension). The Parshendi seem (I have interpreted it this way) the native race to Roshar, with humans introduced (presumably by Honor and Cultivation, just as humans were introduced to Scadrial by Ruin and Preservation). So Parshendi inability to surgebind (so far, at least) seems more a function of their natural development, rather than something designed by a shard like Kandra and Koloss (and Inquisitors), which are really just humans transformed using the power of a Shard.
How do we know the Parshendi can’t surgebind? They did need the gem hearts for food, we know.
And interesting Word of Brandon
QUESTION Are the Parshendi of Odium?
BRANDON SANDERSON Not originally.
QUESTION Are the Parshendi of Cultivation?
BRANDON SANDERSON Not originally.
QUESTION Are the Parshendi of Honor?
BRANDON SANDERSON No.
QUESTION How about the other way around? Can a Parshendi bond a KR spren?
BRANDON SANDERSON Historically, the Parshendi were not made Knights Radiant, or the parshmen weren’t.
QUESTION Can they become squires maybe?
BRANDON SANDERSON Historically they did not, but it’s not impossible.
http://www.theoryland.com/intvsresults.php?kwt=%27parshendi%27
No, I don’t equate Parshendi with kandra, but only noticed how the forms change the way Parshendi emotions and thoughts work (but also give abilities and powers), much like how hemalurgy works on Scadrial. In both cases, the subjects were able to use their own will to resist the influence on their minds.
The kandra, in particular, had a communal response to the influence of Ruin. This is what I was reminded of with all of the comments about how the Parshendi resist Odium by avoiding most of the forms, and assassinating Gavilar. Of course, there is not much information yet on why they had Gavilar assassinated….
Is it just me, or do others find the concept of the Horneaters having Parshendi ancestry somewhat unsettling? Maybe I’m mis-remembering, but I believe the Parshendi are not human, being a very different species altogether. So, if the Horneaters have Parshendi ancestors, does that mean inter-specie mating is acceptable in this world?
@21 10th stanza meaning
“But it is not impossible to blend
Their surges to ours in the end”
I think that this means that the abilities of the Parshendi can be combined with the abilities of human surgebinders in some way.
Do we actually know if Eshonai had a once-mate?
53. Alisonwonderland
Acceptable and historical are two completely different things.
Jasuni @54 – Only if we assume that being in mateform involves having a mate, who becomes your “once-mate” when you’re no longer in mateform. It seems logical, but not necessarily guaranteed, depending on the specific implications of “once-mate” that we might not understand.
@53 and @55 re: cross-species mating – Obviously it’s possible, because it happened… but I would bet that in the current situation it would be frowned on! Who knows, between earlier Desolations maybe the humans and listeners were friends? Or somewhere in the past 4000 years? I really would be interested in finding out when this took place.
The Parshendi killed Gavilar to keep the Gods from returning. It makes me wonder if Gavilar was really the good guy or not. If he had been trying to bring them back, the Parshendi might have been right.
If the bond between listeners and spren is older than the presence of Honor and Cultivation and humans and the ability to use Stormlight was given to humans by the Shards that explains why listeners can’t use Stormlight. Where does Stormlight itself come from? Is it created by the Stormfather/Honor or is there some other source at the Origin and the Highstorms just transport it to the rest of the planet?
Re interracial mating
you don’t have to be friends for that to happen. Slave-master relationship works as well even if the current Alethi society doesn’t seem to do that.
@53: No, you are not the only one. If the Parshendi ancestors were in one of their forms like Mateform, or work for that was fertile – eons ago, it’s a little more understandable. Those forms are self-aware, have personalities, and could love another. And make the choice of saying yes or no.
Cro–Magnons & early homo-sapiens mixed bloodlines. So mixing different species is not unknown. Both were aware and had personalities. Parshendi and Humans, I can see mixing. But mixing enough to create a whole subculture / tribal group? That is more than a few odd duck parings. So the base of the Horneater culture had to be a fairly large number of Parshendi and Humans pair bonding’s.
But in the current ‘dull form’ we see the parishman, I really hope it wasn’t a blending of those forms. That seems closer to having sex with a seriously mentally handicap person, who doesn’t really understand what is happening. I’m not sure a slave form could say ‘no’. And that is just wrong. So I will be happy to know if there are legal prohibitions against having sex with them. Not just social “eww.”
Alisonwonderland @53, travyl @59 and Braid_Tug @60
Interspecies mating sounded a bit odd to me at first blush. But I was thinking along the lines of crossing a tiger with a hippopotamus. That would be an inter-family cross, so no. Interracial mixes are a whole different ballpark (not problematic for me personally). We don’t know what’s up with the intermixing on Roshar at this point. Best to keep an open mind.
The conundrum concerning the rationality of Eshonai adopting Stormform can be resolved. The issue is the contradiction involved in adopting a form that invites control by the ancient gods of the Parshendi, when the Parshendi have sacraficed much over the centuries to escape such control. Eshonai and the elders even ordered the assassination of the Alethi king when he revealed his intention of releasing the associated Voidspren presumably trapped in his gemstone. They knew that the king’s murder would lead to a destructive war between their peoples, but the danger to them of releasing such spren was considered overriding. Why, then, would Eshonai agree to deliberately invite such control by adopting Venli’s Stormform?
The answer, I believe, is that Eshonai, an intrinsically sympathetic character, saw that her people were in a desperate situation. Their numbers were steadily dwindling and they would soon face the prospect of utter defeat and annihilation by the vengeful Alethi forces. Adopting stormform would allow them, she believed, to survive and to hopefully escape in time from control by the unleashed evil forces. She had also not realized the extent of control and change of behavior associated with this new, dangerous form. Previously she had been able to override the behaviors associated with other forms such as Worker and Mate. Now she seems trapped in the behavior patterns associated with Stormform. She becomes aware of the change in her personality from being a sensitive, considerate leader to a harsh, arrogant, and controlling one, i.e., a dictator – but it does not appear possible for her to change. The result is a true disaster for her people. It is unclear if any Parshendi who have not changed into Stormform have survived. My own supposition is that Thude and those he led into the chasm to escape Eshonai and the ‘new order’ will have survivors. They may even revive the fallen Eshonai and find that she has recovered her former self. I certainly hope so, or the projected book featuring her will not be very appealing to me (although the ‘appeal’ of Darth Vader in the Starwars series could be cited as a counterexample).
@61, I, and I believe most of us, have no issues with inter-racial breeding. Outside of a few kooks, most people would recognize all races as being of the human family. The uneasiness I have with the Horneater ancestry reveal is that the Parshendi/Parshmen are not human! They are a different species altogether. So the issue is very much your first thought about a tiger and a hippo, though in the analogy, might be closer to a mating between a human and the intelligent primates on Planet of the Apes.
In short, desperate people do desperate things.
Actually that applies to the Horneaters as well. If I recall, there was a Horneather legend where they sprang from a single woman who thought she was the last woman on earth, and suddenly gave birth to several children. I looked for the legend, but was unable to find it.
And yes, there is DNA evidence of homo sapians interbreeding with neanderthals, and other groups, one of which we only know about because of evidence left in our DNA. We have no fossils for this group.
It’s possible the Makabaki connection is incorrect, but they definitely aren’t the same as the Horneaters!
And that is why you read the glyphs, Wetlander, and I just go smash things. Touche!
Yea, Listeners seem to be too different from humans to be able to produce fertile offspring naturally. Don’t they have orange blood? I.e. not comparable to human – hominid matings at all. Of course, this is fantasy, and if one of the Shards – most likely Cultivation, took a direct hand in the matter, nothing would be impossible.
STBLST @62:
It was my impression, that most Parshendi no longer knew which of the forms were Odium-forms. Or that Odium could still dominate them so easily. Which he probably wouldn’t have been, if not for impending Desolation.
IMHO, Eshonai would have never assumed the Stormform if she had any inkling about it’s true nature and shardic connection, her people being in dire straits or no.
STBLST @62
If you recall the Interlude where Eshonai switches forms (I-5), at the last second (too late to actually prevent the change), she resists the change. While her decision was too late, it speaks much to her character that if she knew (or even suspected) what the new form would be, she would not have chosen it.
While I don’t have the Stormlight books available right now, I do recall that Eshonai was aghast initially that Venli would seek to resurrect the forms of power since those were associated with the gods that their ancestors had spurned. She remained with misgivings, but ultimately agreed on the condition that she be the supposedly first transformed Listener. She, apparently, hoped that she would be able to resist any evil urges brought on by the transformation to Stormform, and be able to judge whether or not Stormform would help them survive or would turn them into evil pawns. When she sensed at the transformation that she was no longer in control of her feelings, it was too late.
Either Parshendi and humans were once the same species and evolved enough that they no longer are, or they are still the same species. The word “human” might not refer to species (abiblity to produce fertile offspring) in Roshar. I don’t know. I find that the more technical I think about these things the less enjoyable the read (except when those technicalities are specifically addressed by the author).
Talking of Parshendi blood color, I remember noticing in the first book that both the Parshendi blood and the chiasmfiends (sp?) blood were described as having a mouldy smell, although they were of different color. Combined with the description that the Parshendi treated the chiasmfiends like gods, I wondered at the time if there was a connection somehow. But with the second book, that seem less likely to the case, but there’s still a seed of possibility in my mind…
@62, @67 and @68 I think Eshonai’s conflicted views on how high of a cost the Listeners should pay to defeat the humans is expressed nicely in I-4:
Eshonai almost definitely displays elements of fear mixed with desperation, there. It’s also interesting to note that for (at least one of) the other Parshendi, the desire to do whatever it takes (even including accepting the old gods) to defeat the humans is fairly prevalent.
@70 Xaladin- I don’t think that Humans are native to Roshar. It’s not a case of them being evolved from Parshendi, or having a common ancestor, but being introduced to Roshar (as they were introduced to Scadrial, in the Mistborn books), which is why the Parshendi view them as intruders. Technically, they are, and are not related. That’s why we’re talking about how humans with Parshendi blood came to exist.
@56 Interlude 4 mentions that there is an element of chance in the transformations unless there is a captive spren. “(A Parshendi) could go into the storm wanting to become a soldier, and come out a mate instead”
Jasuni @74 – That’s true, but the text implies that she at least attempted mating:
Make of that whatever you will. She never, ever thinks of her own “once-mate” – so maybe there’s no one who would be considered such, or he’s dead, or… there’s some other reason she doesn’t think of him. We may learn more some day.
Some hopefully helpful quotes:
Eshonai greatly feared the possibility of their gods returning as shown nicely by the I-4 by @72. The entire Interlude 4 talks constantly about the danger — pg. 199: “there would be others like her (Bila), people who ignored the danger of the gods and focused only on the fight with the humans.” She is so worried that she discusses the matter with her senile, but wise mother and hears the story of the Last Legion whom the interlude is named for, the ones who chose dullform over the forced obedience by the gods. She also thinks how she was one of the main voices that persuaded the Listener leaders at the time to assassinate Gavilar to prevent a return of the gods. She openly worries at the council “Those forms are tied to the gods…What if, in choosing this form, we invite them to return?”
I-4 mentions at the end that the songs were better known by the oldest listeners, but the epigraphs we have strongly point to which forms are most dangerous. Eshonai immediately knew that Stormform posed danger conerning the gods. She quotes from the Stormform song (pg. 206; pg. 286 epigraph has more of the Stormform verse) and says it is different and dangerous. So even though they knew that the songs were an old, cryptic, and probably corrupted from of record about the characteristics of the various forms, they still traditionally took its warnings very seriously. Venli represents a dissenting faction and constantly argues that they cannot trust the ancient songs. (More on this after)
I think Eshonai is being controlled in a “form of obedience” or at best, having her good impulses strongly repressed and all her worst magnified. As @68 mentioned, in I-5, pg. 397, Eshonai associates the released stormspren with the appearance of angerspren and thinks “This is wrong.” She says No! twice and tries to step back from the spren, but it hits her in the chest and spreads tendrils outward, inferring a taking of control I think.
I-8 pg. 404 – Eshonai glories while “pointedly ignoring the voice deep within her that was screaming in horror.”
I-11 pg. 711-12 – A “tiny,” “cometlike” spren pesters Eshonai. She sits and unexpectedly “That rhythm! It sounded like…like her own voice yelling at her. Screaming in pain.What was that?” She puts her hand to her chest and then discovers that spren inside of her hand…implying I think that when the spren rested on her chest, near her heart/soul, it allowed her true self to fight the stormspren domination. (Maybe Eshonai will describe her experience to Axies in a future book, and he will know where/how to find these spren who could form the key to saving the Listeners??) Pg. 713 – Eshonai attuned peace. No. That was the screaming voice. Pg. 719 – That didn’t feel like her. Not at all. None of this feels like me. I… then a dissenting councilman yells “the new form is overriding her! You’ve all lost your minds! Or…or worse.” Eshonai thinks “It was discomfortingly close to the truth.”
I-13 pg. 899 – That voice deep within Eshonai still screamed. Even when she didn’t attune the old Rhythm of Peace. She kept herself busy to quiet it… Pg. 900 – Eshonai shoved down the screams…
I want to comment on Venli and her forms, but I’ll do it in a new comment because this has ended up long.
Any underlined words in the quotes are my addition.
I-1 establishes that Venli found Stormform when Eshonai thought she was working on diplomat or scholarform. She displays no fear of the ancient powers or “Our gods!” as yelled by Eshonai. She argues that they don’t know the warnings in the ancient songs are true. Venli and “her team” have invented paper, a system of writing that is better the songs because it’s “more practical, especially for research.”, carefully researched the various versions of the old songs, and then “through collaboration, research, and deep thought discovered nimbleform.” All in the last 3 years. That last bit about discovering nimbleform smacks of vague politician speak that doesn’t reveal anything about how they really discovered the new form.
I-4: Venli has captured stormspren, with along with what we know now, strongly implies she had some help even discovering them. Venli argues in council “we have found that nimbleform does not harm us. Why would stormform?” This just strikes me as leading. She strongly wants the “glory” of first changing to stormform, speaking as if she already knows how it regards itself. Eshonai chastises her for letting on that she was researching artform or meditationform, but really “looking for one of the forms of ancient power.” “Does that matter?” Yes. It makes all the difference, Venli. I love you, but your ambition frightens me.”
I-11: Venli admits when pressed by Eshonai that she knew what stormform was before Eshonai transformed. She smiles and speaks of the storm that has been waiting to come. Venli semi-anxiously asked newly transformed Eshonai about her sense of the storm in I-8 which Eshonai at that time interpreted as ignorance, but now seems prior knowledge. Many of the nimbleforms are loyal to Venli because “the majority of them aspired to be scholars.” Venli immediately wants to kill the dissenters who refuse stormform. She and Eshonai each want control of the people. She is not scared at all when Eshonai threatens her.
I-13 pg. 899-900 “Venli smiled often while wearing this new form. Otherwise, it didn’t seem to have changed her at all. Eshonai knew that she herself had changed. But Venli…Venli acted the same. Something felt wrong about that.” Venli and Eshonai argue about when to summon the highstorm. “Venli seemed thoughtful. Finally, she smiled, then nodded. “What do you know that you aren’t telling me?” Eshonai demanded…Venli smiled more broadly. “I’m simply persuaded. We must wait.” That bit struck me tonight as Venli listening to an odium spren that only she can see. A Knight Odious? Venli then reveals that the new storm will blow the wrong way. When Eshonai starts questioning her because the songs do not say that, “Something deep within Eshonai nudged her to move on.” So she drops it. “Venli walked away, joined by her once-mate and many of her scholars. They seemed comfortable in these forms. too comfortable. They couldn’t have held these forms before…could they?”
The nimbleform verse of the song on pg. 233 is really ambiguous and confusing.
The scholarform verse on pg. 258 reads:
Scholarform shown for patience and thought.
Beware its ambitions innate.
Though study and diligence bring the reward,
Loss of innocence may be one’s fate.
Doesn’t this seem to describe all of Venli’s actions? We only have her word that what they are calling “nimbleform” really is nimbleform. Could she have actually discovered (or been lead to) scholarform three years ago? This would explain the rapid pace of inventions to aid scholarship, the loyalty of the other “nimble” scholarforms, and her lack of concern for ancient warnings and tradition about the Listener gods. I-1 does say the forms are used to take care of children, which seems like it may contradict the nature of this seemingly callous form.
Or, could scholarform look very similar to nimbleform, like dullform and slaveform, and others couldn’t perceive the difference when Venli and company discovered and transformed to scholars sometime after the discovery of nimbleform?
There’s something there. They have obviously already experienced Odium-controlled forms (or Unmade controlled as I-1 says), and maybe scholarform also functions as their version of the dullform spies, but among their own people.
Yeah…. I’m personally going to wait for I-4 to talk about most of that. Y’all feel free.
Patillian@76&77 – That was some good research and analysis. I’m still digesting a lot of it, but my initial response is to go along with a lot of what you’re saying.
I noticed you included the scholarform verse, but not the nimbleform verse due to ambiguity and confusion. However, I think it’s thought provoking:
Nimbleform “craves precision and plenty,” which could allude to clarity/specifity (precision) and self-sufficiency/prosperity (plenty) if read in a positive “tone;” or it could allude to shrewdness/cunning for “precision” and ambition/greed for “plenty” if read in a more negative one.
I’m not necessarily rejecting your theory that the form that Venli and crew actually discovered was scholarform, but I think the more negative interpretation of the nimbleform description clearly has certain questionable personality traits that could also apply. What would help to figure this out a little bit better would be to clarify what type of defiance the “once defied, by the gods they were crushed,” refers to.
Still very good research, analysis and theorizing.
Alice/Wet@78 – I’m looking forward to you and Carl’s discussion of each of the Interludes. There’s so much good stuff in them, even if I have a tendency to skip over them as I reread WoR (I won’t confess to how many times I’ve reread it, but let’s just say it’s been more than once.) ;-)
STBLST @62
Is it canon that Gavilar’s dark sphere contained a Voidspren, that he intended to release it, and that’s why the Parshendi had Szeth kill him? Those are reasonable suppositions, but I missed something in a big way (entirely possible) if they have been confirmed.
I still have the mind-set that Gavilar was intent on refounding the Knights Radiant and the Parshendi had him killed because they thought doing so would precipitate the return of their old gods, not something they wanted to happen. Further, Gavilar was trying to keep the dark sphere from, maybe, the Parshendi (“They must not get it.”) because it does indeed contain something odious, but unknown (possibly a Voidspren).
Set me straight, you’ze guys.
Patillian and KiManiak
Nice.
@79 KiManiak You’re right, I should have included the verse to compare. I was too in to the point I was making I guess and a little lazy after writing too much anyway. =)
I still think it’s hard to make head or tails of the nimbleform verse. I liked your thoughts about the last line, but precision and plenty are just weird words to put together. I can see your interpretation, but I think we could make others too. They don’t seem to go well thematically…meaning I’m sure they do, but I can’t grok a connection yet.
I also wonder what the delicate touch actually means, and I can’t tell who was defying who. It most seems to say the nimbleforms defied the gods, but were crushed, but that has issues both gramatically and logically. The gods gave them a defiant form? Or the grammar seems to say someone was defying the nimbleforms?
Anyway, the scholarform theory is total conjecture, but Venli seems to fall so nicely in its definition.
@80 I got my RAFO card from Brandon about the sphere, so I don’t think it’s canon, but I like the theory. If he, Amaram, and company found a voidspren, it would be consistent with Amaram’s statements about bringing back voidbringers in order to bring back Radiants.
Patillian @81
I like the theory about Gavilar, Amaram and the Voidbringers too, because it would explain the mysterious dark sphere. To date, though, we’ve been led down a slightly different path–it’s the old chicken/egg conundrum. Heh. At least Gavilar seems to be pointing Dalinar in a less risky direction when he says to Szeth: “Tell…tell my brother…he must find the most important words a man can say….”. I suspect Gavilar didn’t understand the relationship between Parshendi/the old gods/Voidspren when he thought to himself that the Parshendi sending Szeth to kill him didn’t make sense.
Off to the I2 blog.
@82 Ways, I am not such a follower of BWS that I can claim expertise on the ‘canon’. I can only discuss my own interpretations and projections. Gavilar’s ring emits a ‘black light’. That has an evil aura. Presumably, Gavilar intended to use the ring or else why not bury it somewhere as Szeth did. It makes sense to me that he intended to release a Voidspren in order to precipitate an event that would ultimately be seen as necessary and vital. Amaram, near the end of WOR, exults that events have moved towards the fulfillment of the goal that he believes he shared with Gavilar. Gavilar’s admonition to Szeth not to let the Parshendi have the ring is, presumably, a belated acknowledgement that he totally misjudged them and had made a fatal mistake in confiding his intentions. They were not loyal to their ancient gods (the Voidspren or their masters), they were in rebellion.
Yeah, I just don’t think we can say definitively what the black sphere is. I’ve heard several very plausible theories, of which this is one – and they all use the same (tiny amount of) evidence to point to completely different things.
STBLST @83
I totally agree with you (and Patillian) about it being a nifty theory, which could explain much. I like it, and it was my intent to be very clear that I do. My bad if it didn’t come across that way.
BUT…as Wetlandernw @84 points out, we only have a tiny amount of evidence on the topic and it can be construed to point in several different directions. Everything we’ve learned about Gavilar’s death (to date) might be a typical Brandon misdirection ploy.
Hmm, lots to think about here. I really need to find the time and money to go read the rest of the cosmere books so that I can participate in these more, as much of this boy do I not get.
At least here it is prevelent that something this time as different as at the end here (I assume spoilers are ok as the rest of you have been using them) it is mentioned how things are different than historical desolations. What that means about the everstorm and what it is I don’t know. I also found it interesting that everyone seems to think that by bringing back one set of Gods you automatically bring back the other throughout the entire novel. Gaviliar I thought was only trying to bring back the radients but both the parsendi and anmaram seem to think bringing back one automatically brings back the other.
Also I seemed to get the impression that what the Parshendi saw were completly different spreen. In that there was one type of spreen for humans and another for Parshendi. Though I do think they are closer to the cognitive realm and thus can’t give the same cross over that the humans can give spreen…not sure on this.
Loooong-dead thread, I know, but I ADORE this chapter and all of your comments made it even better. Brandon spent WoK building up the “faceless horde of evil soldier creatures” trope — with a few hints that it might be otherwise. Here he deftly subverts it, giving them relatable personalities and a complex, fascinating culture. And then he reverts it, having them plausibly turn into actual monsters, though their evilness is less clear in this story where everyone thinks he/she is trying to save the world from everyone else. I was saddened because I wanted to learn so much more about them, but boggled by the double flip. And grudgingly impressed that he didn’t let these abilities enliven taint his Wheel of Time completion.